Question:
How would your ideal racebike look like, from technical point of view? Leave a message and it might become reality!! This could be the prove that the best approach is a worldwide one.
Greetx,
D.
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Dutch Supermono Association
THINKING of SOLUTIONS
L E A N I N G on P H A N T A S Y
26 comments:
Packaging will be even more important in coming years. So compact design, weight centralisation (or not) should be key focus. Honda's new 800 cc MotoGP bike will be VERY compact I bet!!!
Today I would go for:
1. Carbon fibre wheels
2. Single Composite Brake disk (various diameters)
3. Radial brake calipers
4. GP racing tires (work the network to get your hands on them...this is where you can gain most - good tires)
5. 3x KTM 630 80 HP Minomoto engine (gain experience -reliable race proven engine - light and the most powerful minimoto - just buy 3 - and be ready when KTM will introduce the 4 valve version in 2007 or agree with the factory to run a prototype in 2006 - Chambon already ran it this year in WSM and became...worldchampion)
4. Modern styling...think ahead
5. Carbon Fibre chassis developed with the help of LLD
6. 80 kg bike
...this can be built TODAY! Great starting point don't you think...what about yours?
Plus:
- Slipperclutch / Anti-hopping clutch
- rotationpoint swingarm high up? Read about the R6 design and was wondering who can explain the logic for this mod.
Ok Gentlemen,
All nice ideas, but if we want to develop the thing, we must do something. The idea was to make the best bike using the world. Fast communication and always people working on this design and all surrounding work. Great initiative. The best idea ever made, etc.
But then again. The world isn't really reacting. I think we must present the idea to the world. Because only the world can present it's ideas to this project.
Example: All these things cost money. So, where is the money? Modern styling. Where is the guy who is going to show us something. Drawing, images, stylist impression, etc. When is LLD going to step in. They must want to do this for free, if they could work with the world on this fabulous monster. 80kg bike...... let's do it. Start building TODAY. Engine design. Let's start on it, make concept design and check if product can be made for the set targets and demands. How many hp and torque at how many revs? How compact. Do we need a frame or do we use block for that? Why not use carbon for the block and integrate frame. How many cilinders, do we make only a 1 cylinder? Is the cylinder standing? Where do we have the intake and where the exhaust?
Enough questions, where is the world for the answers. I have plenty of time these days, when waiting at an airport, so I will start sketching my ideas. Who is going to follow. I hope the World is?!
PS. And why do we need a clutch? Can't we make a clutchless engine. This already exists for years.
Greetx,
Dieter
Enough questions but all technical details, should the questions not be 'where do i find the time & $$ to build a proper racebike' ?
Add some x factor and workspace and start building;
1. Carbon wheels, just for the looks of it!! $$ ? quanta cost da?
2. best buy brake set $$$
3. best buy tires.
4. 3 x ktm engine, he eddy toch een 3-cilinder! ;-)
5. Carbon tube frame sounds nice, easy to build? lets find out.
In an ideal world the ideal bike will probaly look like the new 800 cc MGP bike, wonder if there will be a 6-cil on the grid?
Thomas,
You have got a brother who thinks that money is not an issue. If you are creative and think lateral, then everything will come together. Does that remind me of Hannibal from the A-team. Hans, like a cigar??
Let's start this bike. It is notcalled World' championship Moto GP for nothing.
Let's not worry about the money as at this stage it's irrelevant. Once there is a good plan and we need to execute their will be money!
In the mean time we have to feed more ideas into this 'brainstorming'.
For example how can we all think and move into the same direction. How can we generate focus in our thinking.
Let's pretend that we are a 'greenfield' for KTM who want to extend their single-cylinder productline with a hypersport supermono bike. And it needs to be as successful as there current lineup of offroad and onroad activities.
I do have both a KTM Racing and LC4 at hand for initial measurements...but be-prepared for their twincam their are running as a prototype in WSM.
I would be interested in some basic design outline like wheelbase, steering angle, trail etc. Should we go for 250 GP bike measurement as these bikes share about the same power and weight or is the 'conservative' option to go minimoto size the best one?
Also I like the simplicity of eg the NCR bike (and look for the same success). We should keep their design approach in mind aswell:
www.crs-motorcycles.com
www.ncrfactory.it
The whole idea around managing time, money and creativity has been bubbling in my mind for a long time. When I have the time I will scan some of my notes of summer 2004 which might provide good starting point as well.
Last but not least I have some sketches of a carbon chassis base on simle forms and shapes (boxes, tubes) in order to keep molding extremely simple, but where a set of shapes (backbone from, airbox, fueltank, rear subframe) can be bonded to become one unit or monocoque...resulting in a extremely light, strong, smart packaged unit.
Over to you.
Have a look:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/scott_racer99/
1. UK KTM Supermono tested for UK magazine
2. CNC machined crankcases for Rotax
3. HTS Racing Team recognised
I totally agree on this issues, Hans.
But why start to with a frame already? Shouldn't we start with setting up a list of demands?
What is our ultimate aim?
1. Weight = minimum - 10kg
2. Reliability and ease of setup are number 1 priorities. Goal should be to race a full season without overhauling the engine
3. Wheelbase variable between 1300 and 1400mm
4. Compact centre of gravity
5. Budget manufacturing. We might want to set a unit price, based on let's say 250 units per year??
Everybody who wants to participate in this project is welcome, with their own imagination, skills and software packages. Everything is possible, form Pro-Engineer, Unigraphics, solid works to Autocad an sketching (from hand and scanned to paint shop pro proposals).
Remaining question: Should the goal be to make a design for actual build, or are we aiming at a virtual engine, where the separate systems will be simulated to real life comparison??
Please react so we can fulfill this list of demands and start working......
Greetx,
Dieter
said "Shouldn't we start with setting up a list of demands?"
Nope, as this is a prime example of vertical thinking (analyse, make plans, design, execute etc.) which is good, but at the moment vertical thinking is generative and more required at this stage. I suggest we go via de 'Xtreme programming/Engineering'approach, when moving forward.
Biense's comments really put things in perspective. Great overview!
Think big, act small..step by step...therefore let's start with a KTM engine and not with a selfmade engine, as the latter will multiply complexity of the whole project and chance of failure, while the overall gain is very limited. Existing engines give great power and drivability, so why bother!
And let's get rid of the Carbon frame..and stick to something else.
I like the idea on 'lift'in corners...what about electronic flaps or wings that come out when cornering to eliminate lift???
O dear, here we have a change of thought.
The beauty of this, first of all, virtual project, is the fact that we seek to design the ultimate bike, with help of the world. Meaning?? Meaning that it is a project where all items are open for everybody to discuss. This menas that it would be a total waste of time to go for an existing engine. Why take an engine, which is derived from a production unit, and use this as a racing engine. The background of such a unit is not comparable to a racing engine. And if you feel that extreme programming is the choise, why mention to go with a known engine?! Extreme??
I totally agree with Biense for the chassis side. I think the same approach could be used for the powertrain side of this project. So, if we want to make extreme but driveable power / torque, than we certainly cannot choose for a production unit. If this was the case, every Moto GP bike would be derived from the production lines.
What is your argument that the gain is limited? And why would this mean complexity and failure? What do you see as something else, speaking in terms of frames? What is the conceptual thought behind a frame. Do we need it anyway. Not the way I see it.
Integration of functions means reduction of parts, means reduction of weight.
The last remark is, in my opinion, a very good one. Please come back on this, so we can start modelling. Who will take up the glove to start his / hers design? I am currently working on the frameless bike. As soon as I have something to show, I will include some images. And Hans, can you come up with the flip idea? Maybe you can think about the budgetary side of the project as well. I assume you have some thought on this??
Here is a nice cilinderless engine to go with that frameless bike. :)
http://www.htsracingteam.nl/fotos/monohistorie/7.jpg
My point is that I am closing on topics or taking decisions and moving forward 200 mph! instead of asking more and more questions (adding complexity)! Xtreme programming is about not fussing about all these details but going forward. You will find out the details and if you are right later stage, not upfront...that's the whole point...our thinking is 180degrees apart.
As Biense said 'drivability' and 'realiability' are key. Existing engines provide all that..so why bother going throught the hassle, time and money to design your own... and KTM engines are pure racebread engines converted for consumer usage! It is just smart thinking and not saying that it can't be done. But as said gain is limited...or lets reverse it is your intention to develop your own engine to get smart packaging???? Why then not desing new cases for the existing KTM powerplant?
BTW you will be the first to get it right in one time, that doesn't have to spent big money and years of development to get it right...I am not so interested to wait for that. Instead I prefer something which can run a season, while you are still developing your engine ;-)
Good projects are financed by a bank! Go to a bank and ask for money...that's how the world works. Otherwise you don't take the project serious.
Als Web 2.0 en nieuwe economische modellen wil begrijpen - goede uitleg:
http://adaptivepath.com/images/publications/essays/What_puts_the_2_in_Web_20.pdf
The focus of this project is to design the ultimate racebike.
This means that everybody from all over the world can join and share their ideas. That is the way I am thinking about the project. This means that one must not take reality in consideration.
If somebody has other ideas, still at the base of letting everybody giving their own views, let them propose how to deal with all these different ideas.
But to start of thinking right form the start in the direction of known product is, in my opinion, very limiting. Talking about extreme engineering.......
One should ask what the goal of the project is. If somebody would like to start directly in hardware, it will be a choise, not the choise.
I will proceed with my interpretation of the project, where I have the idea of designing a real race engine, being build modular. Whatever comes from that, will come. When there is something to show, I will at this blog.
Let everybody else work out their choise and come back with some actions.
Greetx,
Dieter
my defenition of 'ideal' includes going out on a track to compete!
However it there can be several interpretations of 'ideal'.
It is easy to go from wild idea to a design or image...but you will be very far from manufacturing, and again your thinking is vertical; one move leads to the other - but they are sequential!
In my thinking the steps are more in 'reverse'(!!!) thinking...like you are on the podium because you finished first...on which bike...what are the components...back to the idea itself.
@Biense; see my email from Septembr this year to the HTS Racing Team...you said 20% - I guessed 25% - which is very close...we seem to agree on this!
>From: hans@tenhagen.com
>To: "erik van Essen"
>CC: info@htsracingteam.nl
>Subject: RE: Plannen?
>Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 15:03:43 +0200 (CEST)
>
>...de keuze voor techniek (motorblok, rijwielgedeelte, concept) wordt voor
>90% bepaald door de 75% 'overige' zaken. Nooit(!) door de 'techneuten'
>hoewel die wel inspraak hebben.
>
>Daarom was ik geinteresseerd hoe de 75% van de plannen/prognose eruit ziet
>die tot de minimoto keuze geleid hebben.
>
>...challenge me. Smart thinking please.
>
>Mvg,
>Hans
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ok prima. Echter dit is puur de invulling van de techniek/motor. Is maar
> > voor 25% van belang om succes te hebben met een team. Om echt wat te
> > kunnen bereiken heb je waarschijnlijk ook een plan voor o.a. team
> > structuur (als veel kapot gaat - is er dus iets mis?),
> > financiering/begroting/sponsoring, branding en media exposure voor
>volgend
> > jaar, innovatie, relatie management. Wat zijn daar de plannen voor en
> > vormt het een goede balans met de plannen die je op technisch vlak hebt.
> >
I go for Supermono...after all it is a supermoto derived racing class.
So what's next - have we made progress? In the mean time I bought a Xmass tree, Nokia 9300 and donated to net4kids as it has been a good year.
I think what we need is a good online bb / forum - like the open source one from http://www.phpbb.com/
I can probably host it on my tenhagen.com domain for the time being. Will find out and let you know.
Happy Xmass
Lex v Dijk heeft een Yamaha Minimoto for sale + een aantal carbon wielen. Wie weet of het wat is...vervangen we het Yamaha blok door een 630cc KTM - maken we een carbon achterbrug en gaan we flink stoeien met het bodywork....wedden dat ie heel hard het HRT voorbij gaat...met Eddy erop als coureur (ga maar vast afvallen!!!). Wie heeft er lef om mee te investeren?
ik krijg nog geld van je... maar wel een leuk projectje natuurlijk (of blijven we verder dromen over imaginaire motogp fietsen)
..ik heb nog genoeg in te ruilen!
Beta version live of Open Source Forum software:
http://forum.hanstenhagen.com
/Hans
Leuk stukkie in motor73 over de supermono klasse, 5 mono's getest op zolder.. zo'n 10 jaar oude huskie tsss.
Dan mr Suzuki (hoegee) in motor magazine van december;
"Ook van belang voor het optimale gevoel in een bepaalde mate flex in de swingarm [..] Je zou ook een carbon swingarm in kunnen hangen maar die is zo stijf dat je alle gevoel en contact met de achterkant mist. Dat werkt dus niet"
Je ziet ook weinig carbon swingers in de motogp... dus exit!!
De Prillers rijden die niet met een Carbon Swingarm?
Something is in the making....
Solidworks for CAD?
Forum at forum.hanstenhagen.com
It will be KTM powered...
Stay tuned!
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